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Buy Now Pay Later Program » Latest News On Our Buy Now Pay Later Program » CONVERSATIONS // Buy Now Pay Later and other loan products

CONVERSATIONS // Buy Now Pay Later and other loan products

good morning everyone I can see people are starting to log in that’s great we’ll give you a couple of minutes to login of course let us know if you have any issues with seeing us you should be able to see us on the webcam if you can’t see the slides let us know okay all right I think most of you have logged in now so we’ll get started today as many of you would know is a special day for Australia it’s actually national apology day so legal aid Queensland would just like to acknowledge and respect the turrible and yogurt people as the first nations custodians of the land where our office stands and where we work to help disadvantaged Queenslanders uphold their legal rights in our justice system okay so before we get into the presentation and I introduced you to our wonderful presenters here today I just have to mention our disclaimer slide so this webinar is for community legal education purposes only all right so my name is Ellen Limerick and I’m the community legal education officer at legal aid Queensland and you may know these lovely people already we’ve got Paul Holmes senior lawyer civil justice services our consumer advocate here at legal aid and we have the lovely Loretta creased through the Athenian lawyer in a civil justice services section and they’re going to talk to you today about I’ll pay later and other learning schemes but before we do that I’m just going to go through some GoToWebinar housekeeping in case you’re new to our webinar program so this webinar is being recorded so you don’t have to worry if you miss something today you can re-watch this webinar on the legal aid Queensland YouTube channel so we’ll endeavor to put that up there very quickly so in the next week or so if you need any technical help with GoToWebinar there’s the phone number on the screen to call or you can email webinars at legal a geoduck I’ve done a you so we also have some information for community workers and carers on legal aid Queensland website under the information for community workers and carers page so you’ll also see on the right-hand side of your screen will be a data drop-down bar now you can ask questions throughout the webinar using that and you can also chat to us so feel free to pop in a question if you have a burning question we can answer it on the spot or we might answer it as we go we’ll also leave 20 minutes at the end of the webinar to go through your questions so there’s also a in the drop-down bar there is a handout section where we’ve uploaded the PowerPoint slides for today so feel free to download the PowerPoint slides and print them out so you can write your notes as we go okay can we just check-in everybody here swing that note there’s somebody with a sound problem yeah so let us know type in a question if you can’t hear us the sound appears to be working on our end excellent okay thank you great okay so we’ll start this webinar off with some polls so we’re just interested in knowing what area do you work in we know that we saw some registrants from Western Australia and some other states so that’s very exciting to have people from all over Australia joining into a legal aid webinar so I’ll give you a couple of seconds to answer the poll and thank you to all those who’ve let us know you can hear us that’s great okay I’m just going to close off that poll now so make sure you get your vote in okay so I’ll share the results with you on the screen now so 35 percent of you from South East Queensland we’ve got a large amount in Far North Queensland and regional Queensland – with 13 percent and 24 percent and then 28 percent of you are in another state so welcome everyone that’s great okay so we’re also interested in knowing since the topic of this webinar is buy now pay later providers we want to know how often do you help clients you have a problem with one of these services is it quite a lot is it just sometimes hardly ever or have you not dealt with it yet in your role okay you a couple of seconds to answer the poll and then I’ll share the responses okay I’m going to close off that poll now thanks to everyone who voted okay so we can see by now pay later services are becoming more frequent issue for you all with 38% of you saying you frequently deal with these providers 42% say sometimes 13% hardly ever and 7% never okay all right so here’s the outline of what we’re going to talk about today I might hand you over to pull now to go through that sure um just before we begin I just want to acknowledge the contribution of Maremma claimants women er she was going to join us for it but unfortunately he’s been unable to make it and just wanted to acknowledge their contribution she’s had in preparing it so let’s talk about what we’re going to do today is just come up for those of you who might not have had a lot to do with it what exactly are we talking about then we’re going to look at easy covered like other credit products by the National Credit law what legal rights clients you helped actually have when they may encounter a problem with these products practically what effect are these products having all right so for that small percentage I believe you have are yet to deal with this product what are we talking about essentially what we’re talking about how really rather is you can buy a product or service to pay for it straight away well yeah so you’re buying something by installing it so that’s right it’s very similar I think to the labor services that some people may know about what’s the key difference between mobilizer well you get to take product away so um in a sense you lose the right to have the product in your hands whereas lay-bys you have to pay true all the installments before you can take it away but that also meant that if you couldn’t pay you didn’t end up with the dip you just didn’t get that yeah so and we’re saying and the thing that it’s marketed is is it smackers we don’t charge you interest yes it doesn’t costumer so it’s a way I have things now if you can’t afford to add minute yeah and I was telling her it just before we started this webinar and somebody was telling you the other day that they believe you can buy now pay later for your coffee yeah so but more seriously we’re also seeing any major shopping centers when you go to pay me rather than the option coming up I do you want to pay using your credit card or debit card one of the first options that come up do you want to which to me is a bit of a worry it is that I mean we can all have a little bit is very serious for the clients and and one of the big reasons for that is the fact that you know experience there’s no credit checks done or very little credit checks done and let me talk a little bit more that’s probably my biggest area of interest so a real interesting credit reporting I know that sounds quite boring but it is and I am I am going to speak companies do credit checks on why they don’t and while we don’t want them to actually be able on the hole to access but it goes kind of airports yep alright so good that’s a basic understanding in the product you the other places you see it regularly advertising you walk down your local shopping center care dresses offer it dentists offer it all either basic shop you shops in the shopping center offer it so you just got a it’s very prevalent in today’s society which is a lot an important issue to discuss before we go yeah there is one thing on this is only charges account fees or like fees and one problem they are they like well part of the issue I had with it is I would say they like fees quite high yeah compared to the value of the service they amount of money you essentially borrowed from the hmm yes and that’s where a lot of the clients or the people that we see are being really caught out because something that might have seemed quite cheap if they can’t make payments and they really get stunned for those late fees particularly if the proper checks are not being done in the first place and it was clear that they weren’t gonna be able to make the repayments absolutely so it’s a real concern very true all right so let’s move to the next fight so me being me being me I had a bit of a play on the internet and found lots of facts and figures about by now payment and the effect is having on society and that’s like gives you a bit of a grab-bag about why people are using this service and what effect it’s having on them and for me probably the two things I’m most concerned about is the majority of consumers believe it’s easy to use and less risky yes that’s really that was really concerning financial strife later because most of them would have gone in thinking that they could have fall over but even worse I couldn’t believe that what if people try to hide their purchases that probably that probably says something really concerning about financial well-being more generally in society in addition to buy now pay later products because that’s the sign that maybe these products are a bit more risky than people think they are yeah because you’re trying to hide them and how people you’re not very proud of using the product yeah yeah well I wonder how they can not because ultimately that would come off their credit-card statement so true I guess the thing there is we get into other issues that the subject of today around family domestic violence and elder abuse and horrible issues like that and if you are had clients in that sort of position please ensure they get legal advice from the appropriate services like legal aid does the family and domestic violence they’re seen as legal services out there regarding elder abuse when in doubt help your client get the appropriate legal advice on those issues really important absolutely weird always whenever I’ve spoken to a client groups directly the one message that I have is so important to get legal advice early because you can avoid a lot of the problems that might come about and it’s much easier to sell that message than to try and sell them about what the what you know might be the consequences of buying these products just really always say you know there’s free legal advice about the other thing that I’m concerned about on this list is 60% of by our party users and purchase things they would not normally treacherous yeah and how much I have any face may never use those those goods goods like that trainers three but I guess the other issue is please to financial oh yeah absolutely and the consequence of that is what other get so they’re not paying as a result of taking this on and that the other debts that they’re not paying which might be four essential items like housing Ellen listening and those sorts of things you know it’s by prioritizing these payments particularly if there’s you know very hard-nosed collection practices then you know those other things will fall by the wayside and we see much bigger problems and we’re even seen people essentially seeking hardship these other products like on the credit cards or the car loan in order to keep paying by now pay later because they know that if they don’t make this payment to buy now pay later will be shut off yeah and they can easily notice a little payments up and so these products advertising and so advertise themselves as having really low default rates and I think that’s bit misleading because part of the reason they have a really low default rate is people are essentially cost shifting the burden of these products all the products that are regulated by a credit Li and you can end products you have a legal right to ask for financial and I mean hopefully there’s some solutions is there any solutions well that’s probably a good spot that’s a very good signal let’s let’s now have a chat about what regulation marries and one of the things most financial counselors and community workers know about is the national credible yes which a national consumer credit protection act and the national credit oh yeah and we’ve got a problem in trying to get by now pay later under this cut under this law diamond yes because to be regulated by the national credit card you have to charge interest and these products do not charge an interest and therefore they’re not regulated by that legislation and I guess the problem there is most consumers I talk to essentially equate these products to being similar to a credit card or similar to a line absolutely nothing furniture councils and the community sector has done a really good job in raising the awareness of the rights that you have under this legislation so people naturally assume that they’re going to have similar rights when entering into these contracts and that’s a problem because they then try and exercise them hmm and a really this point where they’re told legally you can’t do that no exactly in your rights you may have some rights but to exercise those rights are quite difficult time-consuming and can be costly absolutely and I guess I mean some of those rights we’re talking about our responsible lending obligations and so they don’t have to and what we mean by responsible lending is obviously and basically what can you afford this one yeah and it doesn’t meet what you’re looking for and I guess I guess in that just to confirm that words somebody made a really good point in the questions around this idea that some people are using this product essentially to make ends meet because they probably credit report is probably in trouble hmm there that means that had access to the usual credit services yeah and they’re saying this is their only way to get through the next fortnight especially if they’re now providing some of these services at the check up in the grocery stores yes oh of course they would be using those to make ends meet and that’s not a good long-term solution for those clients absolutely not you know we went from payday lending and there’s been a lot of work done to make those products regulated and to ensure people can afford those products and now we just see another product coming onto the market that has similar consequences for consumers and we’ll explore later on what we say should happen in today’s regulation is we think that’s really important yeah the other thing we’re talking about is people nearly always in this space I wanted financial hardship yes absolutely when they come and see us you know and I’m sure let’s say for all the financial counselors out there and community workers and they simply don’t have that legal right with these products exactly and I think there’s an expectation and that’s one of things that we’ve both seen in our work across the board people think that they should get financial hardship for also such things when they can’t afford to go this is one area again where there is an access to momentum hardship and no requirement to do so I should say there are some buy now pay later companies who have of their angular solution are starting to have a financial hardship process but it doesn’t have a basis in the law it’s just something they’re doing as part of running their business which is which is which we welcome but we think it should have a basis in law yeah and their worries and we think you should it should have a basis law is if somebody then doesn’t comply with it there’s a remedy for the consumer yeah and that’s really important absolutely I’m gonna again we’ll just Park the credit chicks now Paul are there any questions here because even though I’ve got my glasses on I can see sort of the answering but funnily enough there’s another one about credit reports so people are very keen to hear that so we’ll get to that Sean one and there’s another good one here around the fact that some clients have multiple accounts we different buy now pay later companies and there’s not okay well again it wouldn’t matter even if they knew about the other buy now pay later products that these people have because there is no obligation to engage and responsible lending to ensure that the people can pay for those so they could have 50 from these products and that wouldn’t give you any rights involved and the risk as the question rightfully points out is invariably that means they want that afford all these multiple accounts and that’s going to see massive amounts of late fees and admin fees as those accounts are paid and that’s that’s a really good point you buy alright so moving to the next one just the other really important thing is these companies by virtue of not being regulated they don’t have to be a member of the Australian Financial complaints or sorry there are a number who are joined but they’re voluntary members and I suspect this is where I’m just going to jump in a little bit about credit reporting I wonder whether they’ve joined because they can’t get access which too many people may not like but they cannot get access to the credit reporting system without being a member of an external dispute resolution scheme so one of the ways in which they can get access to credit recording is to become a member so the first thing if you’re talking about credit reports a check whether the company is a member of Africa and if that company is threatening a person with a credit default misty and they’re not a member of Africa then the the question would be on what basis are you making listed yes because you need to be a member of speak Africa or an external dispute resolution body I suspect also one of the other reasons they’re probably joining is interview – it’s something they can tell people about as a point of differentiation with other companies in the industry I certainly and I think it’s a it’s and I think to some extent – it’s seen as a way in which they were they can say to regulate this is where we are good players and that the regulation may not be required but the difference is if you’re regulated by the credit law you have to be a member don’t you absolutely and you can get a bad decision you may not stay very long that’s right so if you you’re under the credit law and you no longer remember you don’t have a lot of sense anymore yeah where is that these companies if you lay you there’s really no consequence the other thing we’re saying is there has been an inquiry of Senator look just these issues in early 2019 they recommended a greater regulatory frameworks with its companies so far none of those recommendations unfortunately have been acted on so it’s something out there that the more evidence collectively we have about a harm these products cause the more hope collectively we have of being able to convince government and convinced the Parliament that further regulation is needed so even if it’s if you get a client who’s in great difficulty lose these problems even if you spend five minutes just recording the details so that when either say the financial counseling Association or somebody like that for us are looking for case studies you don’t have to go back searching through the files you’ve already done a work and the difference of case studies and and the impact they can have on people who are making decisions that war is really big isn’t it absolutely because I think you know if you can if you can relate something that speaks to their own personal circumstances that has a real impact on policy makers and they see this they are this is such-and-such who’s in my area all I would you know I would fit into that mold then they think well this does have an impact on everyday Australians yeah so we don’t have the regulation moment we lock on that but we have scope for continuing to show government that regulating this industry is important absolutely yeah and I think I would stress black all that so important to have those case studies ready to go um all right so I guess that problem is credit law doesn’t apply if you’re helping a client who’s got a problem with this sort of product what can we go oh well it’s harder I think I think this is is the thing I think there is somewhere out there that’s helpful to us but what we need to look at is what can we use now while we try to argue for that further legislation and those sorts of things we’re talking about is are there any unfair contract terms in in the product and occasionally you will see weeds contracts there might be a term that provides no benefit at all to the consumer is solely written for the company and is not something that’s vital to the company in order to protect their eyes and if you see terms like that you should call companies on and call you and you definitely should absolutely because they it could very well bring an unfair contract turn there could be some other stuff around the contract law as to the way that the contract was formed all this wailing intercepted combat but the problem is isn’t the biggest problem call you might have those rights but what how can you enforce them and this is the difficulty isn’t it you you would in theory end up having to go to the state tribunal and this is where I mean in Queensland just a tribunal it may be a different system in each of the different states so you definitely want to get a little advice about that wouldn’t you I think that and even if you go through a tribunal system and you have access to a tribunal system in the state or territory that you’re in which is a relatively cheap option it’s still quite daunting for consumers to go through that process it’s not an easy process to go through you know it’s not quite the same as going to be Ombudsman where you just really need to put the facts and this is what you want it’s you know it is a lot more difficult and I wonder with how many people can actually do it and this is I guess the difference between what practical rights people have no legal rights people have and practically can actually yes so you might have all those things being applicable to the particular contract might be misleading or deceptive conduct it might be unfair contract terms but there isn’t any access to assistance to go and take those complaints through the tribunal and the clients just are incapable of doing that having said that if they’re a member of Africa you would lose nothing if you’ve got a complaint with them yes so I am talking about ones where you would because they’re not a member of them you’re absolutely right so you can still go to Aspen of course if you had all these sorry hopefully we haven’t confuse anyone that no that’s all right no so I think we’ve covered a lot of these already but the one I’d heart highlight is that a cost shift and that hardship is much easy again what I want to spend a bit of time on is talking about credit reports yeah so I’m not just going back back well just mortgage brokers are suggesting having that’s a good spot yes yes so the first thing that I wanted to talk about is again the first thing that you have to understand yes credit reporting is available if you have the basic the basic definition is you you’re allowed seven days or more to pay for the product all right so that’s right basically that could cover anyone easy to cover the dentists and so what that means is they’re buying our homeowners ability to list on a credit report doesn’t require them to be a member of Africa or a dot it does so at the core of it they would be able to list okay because they give extend credit from one at seven days or more okay so but the credit legislation requires if you want access to credit reporting that’s both from listing and for seeing if somebody has already a lot of other accounts is that you must be a member of an external dispute resolution scheme so that people have access to a complaints mechanism if things go wrong so if they’re not a member of Africa and they threatened a list of default what are we doing allowed because where do you go to you’ve got the only real place that you go to is probably the office of the Information Commissioner Commissioner is AIC office of the Australian information Krishna the OIC but really the area so they don’t really deal well with individual complaints so it is quite difficult to find somewhere where you can take your complaint to it might also bug reach the debt collection guidelines because you’re threatening something that you’re unable to do so it depends on whether you would be making that complaint to the agency or lassic in that particular case but again both those both those government departments are regulators and so if focus is not on dealing with individual complaints it’s about how to regulate the whole industry and so sometimes we think it’s a great idea to for financial counsellors to make complaints to regulators but they have to understand that it will not if they can’t guarantee an outcome for what if they’re not a member of Africa and the default listings already been night well it’s again well I would in that particular case go straight to the credit reporting agency that’s what I make a complaint and say well they’re not a member of external dispute resolution they shouldn’t have been able to list why have they I I suspect that this is going to become less and less of a problem me about getting much better I did want to talk about two things so if they are a member of Africa there is a difference between what they can list even then because there’s two different systems there’s a comprehensive credit reporting system and there’s the default listing and in the comprehensive credit reporting system it required you have things like the accounts that a person has when they open their clothes the amount of credit and there’s also something called repayment history international but which shows where the payments are late even more than 14 nights but you don’t get access to and repayment history information as a lender unless you’re providing regulator credit or credit when is a responsible lending company mode not being able to get access these people will not be able to get access to repayment history information there’s also another issue though is there at the moment even if they are members they’re not required to actually record I’m saying that an accounts being opened because at the moment any mandatory credit reporting does not apply to anyone else thank you thanks so and I’m not yes so a mandatory credit reporting is only going to apply to banks at the moment and then it might go to the others but even in that case it will yes so they don’t need to report so you could have 20 people that might have access to credit reporting because remember but then agency that the person has a auto product with them so anyone else giving them a product or lending the money when one no another okay so to summarize if I if I’m understanding yeah so what you saying is effectively what they can do is affect a credit report by listing the default yes there in order to do that they have to be a member of Africa before they can do it yeah if they’re not a member of Africa and they’re threatening a default we’re going to what I call the Privacy Commissioner because I can’t say the long name or the a tribal see if they list a default when they weren’t allowed to they should complain directly to the credit reporting agencies would give you some rights to go after the Ahmanson okay because the credit reporting agency is a member of the Ombudsman scheme so if they don’t if the reporting agency decided not to take the default on he can access them the Ombudsman and say well the credit is the credit reporting you’re making the complaint about the credit reporting agency not about remember okay alright that makes a bit of sense I think that there’s quite a learning more about just judging by the questions they’re getting through so if that’s something you might want say a webinar on at the end of it at the end of this webinar there’s a survey and please let us know if that’s something you’d be interested in hearing from us around alright we’ve seen what we’ve got in this area and how is currently regulated what we actually look what do we think we allow and consumers to interact with this product and protect you hmm and I think we’re saying three things one is consumers think these are like credit products they’re regulated by the national credit law in our new like products should be treated and regulated in the same way and that is these products should be under the national credit law oh yeah absolutely and I mean at the very least you want those things that are in the national credit law such as responsible lending such as financial parachute unjust contracts those sorts of things so that there’s a yeah because we don’t you know we don’t want these products to be in the market unregular and as a consequence of that they would have to be a member of Aska but it’s such that if they are starting to leave Africa they would lose their ability to offer this product yeah and we think that’s fair the other thing we think is really important that the insurance industry has the banking industry has the life insurance industry has is an enforceable industry type yes absolutely and that industry can’t really a sec has developed a really good statement as to what should be in an industry code and we really think that they ought to have a similar color and meets those requirements because otherwise those kinds of toothless time as we’ve seen some funny ones over the years oh my god yeah and I guess some of the basic stuff we’d expect in comedies there’s a code compliance committee monitoring them and what that does is checks on to make industry to make sure they’re compliant with the commitments in the code mmm it’s pretty basic stuff but it’s probably often one of the big sticking points one of the other things we expect is that it’s enforceable like some kinds if they’re not enforceable what good are they so you might say of all we’re going to do financial hardship you never do it and there’s no consequences yeah so what’s the point of having that and we would say the easiest way of doing that is an industry code and the commitments in it I can part of the contract probably the easiest way isn’t it yeah well that’s the way because then there’s no doubt about what applies hmm and look we should acknowledge that there is actually currently there’s a draft in code from some of the body I’ll pay later companies out there in the public field common hmm I think constitutional that might close on the 11th of March if you’re interested in feel free to have a look at it we’re having had a look at it I have some concerns as to whether it meets the regulatory guide that Loretta reflection and we’ll pop that in the submission we’re doing and so I’ve encouraged people Chachi and look at that code and and think about how how it does or doesn’t or wouldn’t meet the needs of their clients and who are using these products because it’s got to be workable for your clients yeah it does not work at all it’s not worth it and obviously again you can have the most beautiful even enforceable industry code but if they’re not a member of an ombudsman scheme like ask them from a practical point of view and having worked in this area for many I know where to say that’s the biggest you know that is a big issue because I don’t care what laws there are what consumer rights think of it at the end of the day people don’t have a practical Avenue and forcing those rights being hopeless agree mmm all right so what can you do for clients what would I practically do currently what what do we think we’re thinking I’d still ask for financial hardship because you lose you lose nothing by seeing what a company would do for you in also I think direct people to more appropriate products just as an example Newlands can also be useful I do yes for those of you have not interacted with no interest loan escapes Loretta’s right to pick me up let’s talk in acronyms and then I guess the other thing to remember is don’t forget that you can look at the whole of the conduct of who your clients be interacting with and to make sure that they’ve done what they’re supposed to do with the law that applies outside of the credible that’s true and you can raise that letters to them I mean whether they’ll the problem often is it’s about enforcing enforcing after that if they’re a reasonable player in the market they should they they may be willing to look at financial hardship and also about the conduct and what happened in the circumstances and I often think that sometimes financial counsellors or community workers are a.cian stronger positions in release because we often have to say well this is the law and what we think legally the clients are entitled to but I find that financial processes can ask for things and that often can achieve those outcomes so long as it’s and I’ll put the disclaimer in so long as it meets the requirements of your own financial counseling code of conduct yeah we dance then you’re fine yeah all right what we’ve reached then is time for questions so well just have a look at some of the questions that have already come through and if you’ve got questions we haven’t answered about this product along the way please feel free to start popping those through and we’ll answer that as many as we can before times up I’ve got one question and that I think was asked and that we haven’t spoken about it yeah are these debts provable in bankruptcy I think the answer yes it just like they were and like any other day do you have to look up and say no because the contract the contract for the governor yeah contract is unsecured and I’ve never seen it secured I have not seen a secured by now Highliner contract yeah if it was a secured by now up a ladder contract it’s probably different you know those are good yes but I’m yet to see a contract like that no so in some sense I mean yeah so if you have you know ten all right well I don’t know whether it would be an advisable to file for bankruptcy Justin I’m out highlighted because they’re likely to be a small amount so my guess the reality is we see these products wrapped up with my credit card or multiple credit cards of personal Orion smaller than a credit loans consumer leases are often year as well so the whole range of products and so definitely throw these in terms of the debts if somebody decides that bankrupt is worthwhile absolutely happening so and I guess I guess that feeds in nicely this next question that’s popped up is and that’s this idea often consumers actually see these products is the problem really though they actually see me other credit products as the problem and seek help about those that’s true because they’re so keen on keeping this product available to hmm yeah I would be much about what they do it would be on our pay letter providers are doing in terms of enforcement have we seen a lot of incessant or just D collection practices look I think it from one other there is this one couple and probably barriers between the amounts because remember with these products you can get loans anywhere between fifty dollars or if the coffee’s applicable much less than that hurts that and then way over three thousand dollars so one enforcement mechanism to use probably vary a bit depending on the amount and depending on the practice of the company the agency anyone out there has seen the payload and providers take any legal a collateral yeah because we I haven’t seen I haven’t had anyone come to me where they’ve actually taken legal action that’s right but not and I guess part of the problem there for them is an image problem if they start enforcing this or it would allow people like you and me a much stronger and to government greater regulations for coming here yeah about those things they’re scared about good that’s enough good strip of legal action and the threat of credit report is totally great they’ve been threatened in that particular way legal advice is always a good idea if I even before it’s starting with doing that search as twenty remember yeah I think we’ve answered the credit reporting questions that have come through in our discussion but if we have it please please feel free to send that through again now we’ve talked about multiple accounts so the idea is that counts on what that causes yes and just and that’s cause as you rightfully identified by the fact that there’s no responsible lending requirements and the credit providers all the other buy now pay later schemes find it hard to identify if there are other accounts one way I would suggest that could do that if responsible lending afire if you’d implement something like the payday lenders have to do and that is get three months with bank statements hmm because all of these I’ve done by direct debit yeah and so they’ve shot up on the bank account hmm so if we got this under the credit law I’d actually be arguing that they should be treated pretty similar to a small amount line and actually I mean at least in that way a small amount credit providers who are providing credit the do should become aware that the person has by now pay later because it should be in their bank account statements yeah so at least at the moment lenders who are lending new credit may not find out about them on credit reports but woody Spain looked at the person’s spending on their backpack swings that’s right there’s another good question here the rather around majority of viewers clients are functionally illiterate or have mental health issues and probably don’t as a result understand the contract they’re signing up for well this is a problem this will really that’s problem about enforcement about enforcing a person’s rights and how is that person’s place and we look as much as we’d like to have lawyers in every rural area and the reality is that most of these even when people are going to the Ombudsman scheme if they’re available they’re required to do it by themselves and that’s why we think you both need an avenue of redress when things go wrong but you need proper regulation at the start and enforcement of those regulations so that only a few people enos sense need the numbers men ultimately all those people may very well have rights to say that that contract should not be enforceable against them but who’s going to take the case to the tribunal but they can’t do it and at the moment the burden falls on community workers financial counsellors and a few of us that there are yeah and that’s collectively we can’t see everybody no no and we certainly can’t even if we things gives a little bit of the faster that it will certainly can’t help them through the whole process of that I think it’s real terrible outcomes so yeah this is another interesting one which we haven’t covered and this is the issue around your ability to get a mortgage if you’ve got an hour a letter I’m hearing from banks but if they see one they’re taking that into account as a as a commitment that might affect somebody’s ability to pay under respond under responsible lending oh absolutely that would and the problem is they are me it’s the problem is they do use credit reporting and they make even inquiries on your credit report – eh what and where those inquiries are coming from to affect your ability to you know obtain line so it is really important to know that you know if you making lots of inquiries we say small amount lenders and they are on your credit report that will be something that a lender when you’re looking for a home home will take into account because they’re thinking while these people be having two girls – these small amount lenders or this phone out pay those schemes and I guess the other thing is if you’re approaching a bank asking for financial aren’t you a bank could quite reasonably say to you only giving it to you if you’re also asking for financial hardship on your buy now pay later products etc because why should they hear the iron of the fact that your clients in financial hardship I mean in that case I would be taking that to Africa but it’s a fair enough it’s a fair enough thinking on behalf of other lenders is why we take all of the cheap in terms of you know not you not being able to pay your loans yeah sure okay other questions come through is around the difference between zero means it’s time well I don’t know much fancy the money and I think I I think the point out back there is these products aren’t caught by the credit world yeah they have differing approaches and different product offerings but ultimately the problems we’ve been uh still the sack another question that’s come through is a good one around is this the same as rent to own and the answer is no no why and the answer is because what we talked about with rent on is what you’re doing is you’re leasing the good measure things that way so you don’t iron the good whereas in this particular case it’s you only just have borrowed money to pay for it and in these and in fact some of those may not be regulated either but that’s an issue for that’s a whole other issue another really good point that’s come through that we may not have been clear about somebody’s pointed out that you can’t use animals learn to package it and that’s wrong yeah but what we’re saying is we all have a role in preemptively helping clients to go to other products before they get themselves in trouble DS progress you know as a way of you know giving them a little bit of Education when they’re in getting a resolution of this particular product saying if you need help in the future and me to buy these sorts of things week there are alternatives they he can access yeah I think that’s a good point that Nils all those sorts of schemes and are generally available to Kotov there’s another really good question here about what sort of verification of identity do these company – oh my that’s a really good question I’m not sure on my the ants for that well we don’t mmm but there’s no I don’t think there is any requirement in a sense to get there’s nothing at the law that requires them to have purifier intervene if they happen to give I won’t say sell a product to somebody and then it’s done fraudulently well then that is an issue about whether they can recover against the person say that they have a motive but it there’s nothing at law that requires them to get 100 points of ID before they provide ending to them because it’s angry you know yeah and there’s a question we mentioned unjust contracts before and where there’s question around does that apply to bearing our pilot and we’re saying no well but bad this is where when you’re in a different state so in some other states there is a civic legislation but it’s not credit legislation that’s unjust combats legislation so this is again where you would really need to get legal advice in the state theory but generally in Queensland if you don’t have access to the national credit code you only have the Australian Consumer Law which does have some sort of misleading and deceptive conduct on conscionable conduct those sorts of provisions but again we call comes down to enforcement again and that law in relation to those things is very narrow see you have to be in a very narrow criteria before you could say a loan is unconscionable under the general law um there’s a question comes through and I have to say this question doesn’t surprise me saying that a small amount of lender doesn’t see a buy now pay later by contract as a liability they should take into account I’m not shocked by that because to be honest that kids with no experience exactly the small amount of contract lenders who generally speaking do a terrible job of assessing people’s income and expenses and always think that you can live on nothing really and never have an entertainment in your life absolutely now another good question to buy now pay later if you’re under 18 can you get it okay so this is very much question that step waste as well so whether a contract is enforceable against a minor is something that’s different in every state generally in Queensland and only contracts for necessity is binding – oh I know I’m aware that some companies actually having new terms and conditions that you can only get the product if your own over eight I mean if the person gets the product and they’re under 18 doing that’s a different business and it’s irrelevant with I well I would give advice but just because somebody has said that their own age under 18 is not is not necessarily a part for them I’m challenging that but again you’ve got the issue if they’re not a member of Africa they need to enforce certain courts in this court or tracking and there was a question about a particular company here being a member of what I would recommend you to ask his website is www.seannal.com Chinon it allows you to search the members so type in the name if they’re they’re great if they’re not you’re going to take the other options we’re talking to that and in fact I always use such because they put you on to the right person in my company so which will be the particular complaint section so it’s even if you know they are a member of Africa I always find a contact details for the company using that search sx/4 and our experience and we’re getting comments to the same is it’s actually really easy to sign up to these products solutely well if you if you’re going into the supermarket and they’re asking you do you want to play by aster part it must because they don’t want you hanging around for 10 minutes filling out I guess the other thing to come and I know we’re getting to the end of the webinar but we’re happy to stay around for longer fixed impressions we haven’t answered so I’ll just put that out there one of the other good questions is around these companies ability to bear so what usually happens when you don’t pay one of these companies is they bene and so what that means is they prevent you from being able to access the product and through you catch up and in theory they can do that’s pretty much forever coming I suppose they can more you behind say we’re going to the shop let’s not get people like that’s you know it’d be interesting to see how that plays out over the next few years as to whether they can do keep doing that for a period of time because you know there are laws about limitations of actions yeah and those sorts things and whether access to credit is a right that you should which is as they may a subject of the most discussion over years because you know there is a view that having sister credit is something that’s useful at certain periods of time and people just shouldn’t be excluded just because they’re in the low socio-economic and the difficulty is doing that in such a way that’s portable and responsible so this is an interesting question someone is saying to us okay there are problems with this product but isn’t it reducing people’s reliance on credit cards and in theory that’s right but our our problem is they should be regulated in the same way as credit cards because they potentially have the same bad impacts as not paying your credit card and so they should be regulated in the same way I don’t think too that I’ll be interested to see in the in what I would call you know people who are in lower income brackets their access actually to credit cards has declined over time and I don’t know if I don’t know if necessarily they just you know be getting enough credit through credit cards anyways so I just think we should be making sure that people have affordable Crona yeah and there’s so many programs that are available that we really ought to be directing people to those products you know two final questions before we might call causal caller whole one is around education my understanding is there is nothing included in the financial literacy program specifically about buying our motor skills but I might you about education is you really want to get to people when they’re actually thinking about doing totally agree and you know whether you want to have and also I think the other thing is that you really want to make sure that the community workers are educated so then when people are coming so for budgeting advice or our wanting you know help how to deal with their finances that’s I think a really good opportunity to talk to them on one on one basis about the sort of strategies that they might have in improving their financial well-being all right and the kind of final issue is around these companies right in Devils I’m not aware of a client yet where a deck like that has boarded on our panel on a debt and it’s trying to recover if that happens get that client legal advice alien second yeah of course I always salutely agreeable the biggest thing is you know clients get the legal advice at least then they know their options even if their options are really cool but at least they can go on the basis well I know what the worst is just one part of Christmas come to us we’ve been talking there’s no data that I’m aware of around a reduction in payday lending as a result of buy now pay later my suspicion is it’s not likely yes I don’t I don’t see that that necessarily would be a reduction particularly when people are getting these products that seem to be on a whim yeah where they’re not really wanting to buy or wouldn’t have normally bought it or you know have seen it and they’ve gone well you don’t have to pay for it now seeking get it out whereas yeah I think the reasons for going to have small amount when there’s Mike all right I’ll hand you back to Ellen to finish it off thank you everybody thank you wonderful questions and thank you guys such an engaging conversational webinar I think I learned a lot and I hope you guys all did too just to finish up we’ve just got a couple of extra slides with our contact details but you need to contact us at legal aid office locations we’ve got 13 offices throughout the state and if you’re interested in more webinars from us 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